Throughout Season 3, on the TNT drama series Animal Kingdom, the Cody boys – Pope (Shawn Hatosy), Craig (Ben Robson), Deran (Jake Weary) and J (Finn Cole) – have been faced with a series of tough decisions, in regard to their own personal ambitions, relationships outside of the family, and what to do about Smurf (Ellen Barkin). As it all comes to a head in the season finale (and thankfully, the series has already been picked up for Season 4), there’s no telling just how far Smurf will manipulate them next to get exactly what she wants.
During this 1-on-1 phone interview with Collider, actor Shawn Hatosy (whose Pope is one of the most fascinatingly complex characters on TV) talked about the journey that’s lead Pope to this point, whether Pope could ever live without Smurf, his favorite thing about the character, whether Pope knows when he’s being self-destructive, the experience of making his directorial debut on Episode 311 (“Jackpot”), what other TV series he’d like to direct an episode of, and where things could head for Pope and Smurf, in the future.
Collider: As always, this has definitely been quite the season. Where would you say Pope’s mental state is at, when we leave him at the end of the season, compared to how he was when he started the season?
SHAWN HATOSY: Well, last season, or Season 2, was so much about Pope being on this journey of forgiveness, and he was looking in all these different places. He stumbled onto church, and he was trying to find the answers through God and through Amy (Jennifer Landon). Then, the real salvation came from the most unexpected place, being Baz (Scott Speedman) and his forgiveness. It was a really nice arc, last season, because it was surprising and it came together real nicely, with Baz forgiving him for the murder of Catherine (Daniella Alonso). Then, unbeknownst to Pope, Baz was murdered. That’s where we dovetailed into Season 3. This family is so toxic and fractured, and he’s weighing the possibility, from the first episode, that Smurf is behind it. By the time we get to Episode 11, he has his answer and we’re jumping off into new territory. These characters, with this information, and particularly Pope, will never be the same, which is a good thing.
Do you think that Pope can ever truly be at peace while Smurf is still alive?
HATOSY: That’s a really great question. Look, this is my opinion, but as much damaged as she’s done, I actually don’t think he can live without her. I think he needs her. I don’t know what a shrink would say, but that’s what he thinks he needs to survive. I guess if you look at the bigger metaphor of the animal kingdom and all the animals that go out on their own, the lone wolf doesn’t necessarily survive. I think that for all of these characters to survive, they’re going to have to figure out a way to be together. That’s just my opinion. I’m not reading into anything. That’s just how I feel.
It just seems like a no-win situation because being the one to get rid of Smurf wouldn’t help Pope any either. Any way he’d deal with it, it just seems like it can’t possibly go well.
HATOSY: I know. Don’t you wish they could just have a nice Christmas Eve, where they’re all sitting around and drinking hot chocolate by the fire place?
It seems like Thanksgiving dinner with the Cody family would be the most terrifying dinner ever.
HATOSY: It’s just not in the cards for these guys. The other thing, too, is that she’s used Lena to basically blackmail Pope into moving back in with her because she needs him there to do whatever she’s going to do. I think that Pope understands that that negotiation is going to take a toll on his soul. It’s soul crushing. For Lena, it’s worth it because she’s the one bright spot in the family. She’s the one that has the opportunity to have that Thanksgiving that Pope never had. She can go be in a family. For him, it’s worth it to give up his soul for Smurf, so that Lena can be normal.
I would love to have an entire episode of this show with thought bubbles that come up for Pope, just to know what he’s thinking. It seems like he’s just always thinking about ways that he could gruesomely murder Smurf.
HATOSY: Yeah, that would be a great idea. That’s the thing about the writing. When you’re an actor and you’re first starting out, you think, “I need all of this dialogue to prove that I’m a thespian and I can do all of these great speeches and monologues,” but the truth of the matter is that the less they give you to say, the more of a challenge it is. It’s also more rewarding because you do get to tell that story with your emotional attributes – the way you walk, the way you dress, and the way you hold your facial expressions.
It’s so effective with a character like this. It makes him so much more unpredictable because you really don’t know what’s going on in his head, or what he’ll do next.
HATOSY: That’s my favorite thing about him. You just don’t know. In one moment, he’s sitting there making spaghetti for Lena at 2am, and then the next moment, he’s turning the guy in church in and taking him out for robbing the church. It doesn’t even seem to have any kind of effect on him, either way.
Pope is definitely at his most human when he interacts with Lena, and because of that, it was just so hard to watch him make that decision to give her a different life. What’s it been like to work with the actress who plays Lena, Aamya Deva Keroles, on developing that dynamic and bond between your characters?
HATOSY: It’s been incredibly rewarding. When I read that scene, there was a visual reaction. When we did the table read, I just didn’t really require any work. I had to try not to cry because it made me very emotional. I think that says a lot about her and the writing. To say the least, it’s not what I expected when I signed on for Animal Kingdom. It’s not, at all, where I thought this character was going, but the value that we got out of that relationship, it shows dimensions of Pope that I didn’t have any idea were there.
Do you think that if Pope were actually put into a position where he had to take Smurf's life that it would just completely break him?
HATOSY: Yeah. I don’t think he could do it. I really don’t. I’ve thought a lot about it. He can hate her all he wants, but he’s not going to kill her, and nobody else is going to kill her either. She’s his to hate. He wants to kill her. He wants to, so badly, but I just don’t think he could ever bring himself to do it.
Now that Pope has told Smurf that he knows what’s going on, how dangerous would you say he is to her, especially moving into next season?
HATOSY: I think it’s the most vulnerable that she’s ever been, in terms of her relationship with her children, and that’s the most important thing to her. I don’t know. We’ll see where it takes us. Of course, Smurf being Smurf, she’s going to have her way of manipulating the information that Pope has. We’ll experience that a little bit in Episode 13, the finale, and we’ll see where that goes. What I find incredibly interesting about the series, as I read stuff online and read the reaction from the fans, is that Baz died in the first episode and there are still people out there that are like, “Wait, I don’t think he died.” Smurf literally admitted that she ordered the hit and people are like, “I still don’t think she did it.” It’s amazing to me that we know, and yet we still don’t want to accept how awful these characters really are. You root for them, and then they do these terrible things, but you still find yourself defending them.
Do you think Pope knows when he’s being self-destructive? Is he even that self-aware?
HATOSY: I don’t know about that. I don’t think he does. I think when he goes into that state, he’s under her spell. I’m not sure he knows, when he’s in it. I think there are times where, afterwards, he realizes what has occurred and his responsibility in it and what he’s done. She just knows what buttons to press. It’s just routine dirty work. Nobody else does it. He’s always been there and done it, so no. That’s really good question. I don’t know.
You also stepped behind the camera, this season, and directed an episode that you did a great job on.
HATOSY: Thank you.
What was the most surprising thing that you learned from that experience? Was it exactly what you thought it would be, or were there things that you wouldn’t have known until you actually did it?
HATOSY: First of all, just because I have been around and seen how directors work, and so much of the job is preparation. It’s about just trying to predict what could wrong, and being as prepared as possible for it. So, in that sense, I wasn’t surprised by anything. I felt in my element. I was very, very prepared. I wouldn’t say I’m surprised by it, but I felt an overwhelming sense of pride, when I saw the support from the cast and the crew. That set me back. I’m not going to say that it was unexpected or that I expected it, but that just knocked me off balance, in an emotional way. I just felt incredibly prideful, for how much everybody stepped up, and you could see it in the episode. In fact, I remember when we did the mixing session, at the end. I was invited to sit in on that, where you make sure all of the sounds are right and you see everything, and when it ended, I was supposed to give notes. Everybody was there, and I was like, “I don’t have any f*cking notes, man. This is the best!” Our post-production supervisor looked at me and said, “This is the tightest episode that we’ve ever experienced.” There were no notes and I thought to myself, “This is amazing!” My sense is that everybody realized they were working for Pope, and so they did the best they could because they didn’t want to have to deal with him, if it didn’t go well.
There were so many moving parts to that episode. You don’t normally even have that much action in one episode.
HATOSY: It was a lot. The reality of episodic television is that you shoot it in eight days, even though I’ve been on the other side of that and done it a lot. That shoot out, we had four hours to do the part where we were actually shooting the guns and driving cars through walls. That just shows you that we prepared and we knew exactly what we were doing, going into it. It didn’t exactly go as planned, and it never does. You have to be flexible and go with what is working to get your day. That was a fun episode with some great performances. Visually, I think it was wonderful. I thought Loren Yaconelli, the director of photography, did a great job. I’m very proud of it.
Now that you’ve done it, if you could direct an episode of another TV series that’s not Animal Kingdom, what show would you like to be in charge of an episode for?
HATOSY: Gosh, there are so many. I want to answer this correctly because there’s a good chance somebody could read it. What would I be best at, is the question. What am I really good at? The character stuff is like Shameless, which is perfect because John [Wells] writes those, and he’s a great writer. Even though the episode of Animal Kingdom did have action, it certainly had a lot of emotional scenes. That’s what really told our story, and I think I’m going to be strong there. And I love Atlanta. I think they’re doing some really interesting stuff. And Stranger Things would be right in my wheelhouse, just because I grew up in that time and I watched, very closely, many films from the ‘80s that it’s loosely inspired by. That would be something that I’d be very good at.
Thankfully, especially with how this season ends, we know the show is going to be back for Season 4, so there is more to come. Have you had any conversations yet about where things will go next for this family and for your character, in particular?
HATOSY: I never know. I think I know, but they always throw something at you. I think we’re going to get to see Pope in a way that we haven’t really ever seen him. When he first showed up in the pilot, he was right out of jail and he was cast out. I think we’re going to mine the relationship between Pope and Smurf a little bit. Those scenes are intense. I know it seems like we’ve had a lot of scenes together, over three seasons, but we really haven’t. My expectation is that there will be more of that, just because of where we leave off.
I’m excited to see where the show will take us next.
HATOSY: Thank you very much. I appreciate the support. I really do. It means a lot. Early on, people just wrote it off as a show where these guys were taking off their shirts and they’re surfers. There are definitely elements of that, but this is John Wells. He’s not a slackwhen it comes to this kind of narrative storytelling style. We’ve got some pretty great directors. Our writers are fantastic. And I think this is one of the best ensembles on TV, but that’s just my opinion.
The Season 3 finale of Animal Kingdom airs on TNT on Tuesday, August 21st.
